Technician Training - Got Any info?

[numberone]

Under part 60 Tech training is a big issue. Has anyone heard of any FAA requirements governing the Qualifications required for the Instructors that are to be giving the courses? What courses documentation is required? If courses will be monitored? What requirements there is for monitoring of instructors; course evaluations; course validations, etc?
Who is going to be the agency that "Qualifies" the technicians?

[mnttech]

Where in the draft of FAR 60 did you see anything about Tech training? I have tried to read the draft, but I keep falling asleep...

[SimProfessor]

Simulation Quality Assurance Program - SQAP: 2000
Standards Document - Revision 4.6

National Simulator Program-Simulation Quality Management System (SQMS) (http://www.faa.gov/safety/programs_initiatives/aircraft_aviation/nsp/sqms/)


Scope

Participation by the respective sponsor is voluntary. However, once a sponsor voluntarily agrees to participate in the program described herein, compliance with the quality assurance program and its requirements become a self-imposed obligation to the FAA/NSPM by the respective sponsor. Failure to meet these obligations and the standards herein, will result in removal of that sponsor from this program. In the event of removal from this program, the NSPM will determine the need, or lack thereof, for any special inspection/evaluations associated with continued qualification of any associated Flight Simulation Device (FSD); i.e. flight simulators or flight training devices.

This standard specifies the contents of an acceptable quality assurance program for sponsors of FSD?s and must be adhered to for the initial and recurrent qualification of and day-to-day use of each of the sponsor's FSD?s through the effective application of the system and the prevention of non-conformity.


SEE Section 4.4

4.4 Resource Allocation

4.4.1 Assignment of Personnel

4.4.1.1 Personnel who are assigned responsibilities must be competent to perform the desired or assigned task. This competency may be determined on the basis of applicable education, training, skills, or experience.

4.4.2 Training

4.4.2.1 - The organization must:

Identify skill needs for personnel performing activities affecting quality (e.g., flight instructors/check airmen; maintenance technicians, etc.)
Provide training to satisfy these needs.
Evaluate the effectiveness of the training provided.
Ensure that employees are aware of the relevance and importance of their activities and how they contribute to the achievement of the quality objectives.
Maintain appropriate records of education, experience, training and qualifications.

[mnttech]

Thanks for the update, now I have something else to put me to sleep (or keep me up at nights?)

[guest]

Since participation is voluntary, I wonder which shops will elect not to participate? I personally know of one shop that doesnt regard its techs very highly. Management there thinks anyone can be taken off the street and become a qualified sim tech. Not to mention the fact also that training there is a real joke. Makes me wonder!
huh4:

[Egyptian]

I would think there are few shops that will elect to participate as the costs of such a program will be very high. Not saying that we work for cheap employers, but it would seem that way from the time I had working airline training. Don't think this will apply to the military side of the business.


Egyptian

[Simmi]

Since participation is voluntary, I wonder which shops will elect not to participate? I personally know of one shop that doesnt regard its techs very highly. Management there thinks anyone can be taken off the street and become a qualified sim tech. Not to mention the fact also that training there is a real joke. Makes me wonder!
huh4:

I'm not saying this is true of my company - no, perish the thought lookaroun but half the shop here is full of techs off the street. Training - just don't get me started on that subject rant2: or I might die laughing from the jokes.

Nope, it is a common problem worldwide - It is one thing to talk about it but another to co-ordinate an action plan that we can all work to to rersolve these problems. I did try once but I got no takers - I won't be bothering again since generally a significant proportion of techies would rather shut up about their conditions including training or the lack of than put up.

[mnttech]

From the FAR 60 comments section: “SQAP 2000 is a voluntary QMS program. Under the final rule, the QMS is mandatory and must meet the requirements of appendix E of this part.”

Which brings us to the rule:
§ 60.5 Quality managementsystem.
(a) After October 30, 2009, no sponsor may use or allow the use of or offer the use of an FSTD for flight crewmember training or evaluation or for obtaining flight experience to meet any requirement of this chapter unless the sponsor has established and follows a quality management system (QMS), currently approved by the National Simulator Program Manager (NSPM), for the continuing surveillance and analysis of the sponsor’s performance and effectiveness in providing a satisfactory FSTD for use on a regular basis as described in QPS appendix E of this part.

Now, if I do a word search for “technicians” in the published draft of FAR 60 (including Appendix E), there are only 8 instances found, the same 4 on evaluations, 3 on independent feed back, and 1 comment.

A word search on “Technician” brings up this statement 4 times (but only in the 60.7 "Begin Information" section, not in the actual rule) “(b) The satellite function means that the Chicago and Moscow centers must operate under the New York center’s certificate (in accordance with all of the New York center’s practices, procedures, and policies; e.g., instructor and/or technician training/ checking requirements, record keeping, QMS program)."

To me, it appears that the SQAP 2000 is voluntary, a QMS is mandatory for FAA simulators, and there does not appear to be anything in the QMS YET on technician training.

[guest]

Why dont the Feds want to emphasize technician compentancy? Could it be that some companies lobbied to have it excluded from the regs? Makes me wonder even more!
purplex:

[Egyptian]

Because they would have to start paying the competent ones a fair wage to keep them. That is why


Egyptian

[guest]

Because they would have to start paying the competent ones a fair wage to keep them. That is why


Egyptian

I hope some of these companies pay dearly for their ignorance! Something needs to happen. Is it right for a center to pay a secretary more money than a qualified and experienced sim tech? Excuse me for being naive, but if the simulator breaks down and training is suspended, than theres no revenue being generated to pay the secretary her salary. confused:

[markovol]

Because they would have to start paying the competent ones a fair wage to keep them. That is why


Egyptian

What would you consider a fair wage?

[Egyptian]

What would you consider a fair wage?


You don't want to know. Actually, just what the average electonics tech who can fix hydraulics, HVAC, networking and God knows what else should make, maybe 100K. That is a good starting point. Youj can always negotiate from the upper position better than starting from the bottom.


Egyptian

[markovol]

I'm assuming (always a good thing) that you have all of the licenses that are needed in the real world to work on HVAC...but seriously...100K...I'm afraid to even wonder what kind of money you make now....scared:

[mbushaw]

Excuse me for being naive, but if the simulator breaks down and training is suspended, than theres no revenue being generated to pay the secretary her salary. confused:

Another team player.
By your logic the most important people are the sales and marketing group, as without them there would be no customers to pay your wage.
Or is it the secretary? Without secretaries no office work would get done which means that no-one would get paid!
Maybe, just maybe, EVERYONE is important to the organization?

[Egyptian]

I'm assuming (always a good thing) that you have all of the licenses that are needed in the real world to work on HVAC...but seriously...100K...I'm afraid to even wonder what kind of money you make now....scared:

I don't have the licenses for HVAC, but I do have a Commercial Pilots Certificate with ASMEL, Instrument Airplane. I also hold Certified Flight Instructor ratings for Single and Multi Engine airplanes, and an Instrument Flight Instructor Rating, so I have a pretty decent idea about what training is all about. And to complete my resume, I have a BS in Engineering. I just enjoy being a sim tech.


Egyptian

[cgsimtech]

Is it right for a center to pay a secretary more money than a qualified and experienced sim tech? confused:

Well, Just how "experienced" IS this secretary???? demon:

[markovol]

I don't have the licenses for HVAC, but I do have a Commercial Pilots Certificate with ASMEL, Instrument Airplane. I also hold Certified Flight Instructor ratings for Single and Multi Engine airplanes, and an Instrument Flight Instructor Rating, so I have a pretty decent idea about what training is all about. And to complete my resume, I have a BS in Engineering. I just enjoy being a sim tech.


Egyptian

Then that explains it ....your crazy......screwy:...and stop complaining about your pay...sounds like you could do something else and make much more...

[Egyptian]

Then that explains it ....your crazy......screwy:...and stop complaining about your pay...sounds like you could do something else and make much more...

I didn't complain about my pay, but merely stated that sim techs could use a better wage. Mine is more than adequate.

Egyptian

[dalsimtech]

Is it right for a center to pay a secretary more money than a qualified and experienced sim tech?Where does a secretary make more than a sim tech? Are we being facetious, or is this literal?

[cavok33]

What would you consider a fair wage?


Yours plus....

[SimFixR]

nevermind

[cgsimtech]

Where does a secretary make more than a sim tech? Are we being facetious, or is this literal?

YES and NO. We all know there are secretaries that make way more than we do. They may not work in the simulation industry but perhaps in the "stimulation" industry... nutkick:

[markovol]

Yours plus....

Your not asking for much are you....

[OKTech]

It's not that secretaries aren't important, it's just that in the grand scheme of things, the simulator technician is of more importance. A manager without a secretary is still somehow going to find a way to get the letters out, or to make appointments and such, but if there are no sim techs to properly maintain the equipment that the secretary depends on to generate the revenue for the company in general, then how does the secretary expect to get paid in the future? I don't think the FAA really cares about secretaries, but they have extreme interest in simulator technicicns!!
argue:

[Slam1]

I don't think the FAA really cares about secretaries, but they have extreme interest in simulator technicicns!!
argue:

Technicicns I are one. Thats is why we need secretarys around because we didn't listen to our elementary spelling and grammer teachers. We don't want to be sending the FAA misspelled words and our dangling participles.gurn:

[The Pirate]

yours dangle???......hmmmm,,,,,.mine participle to the right and up.lolup:lolup:lolup:

[dalsimtech]

It's not that secretaries aren't important, it's just that in the grand scheme of things, the simulator technician is of more importance.It really doesn't matter how important you are, it is a simple matter of market. If you are still in the industry working for the wage, then they can get away with paying it. Market principles beat importance every time. If our groups negotiated better, we'd probably get more.

[Luke]

Bottom line is what companies are concerned with. Not performance. Not training. Not experience....the bottom line. I wish the FAA would stick to something they know something about. It'll be like the military training department where you will keep a training record on everyone. Companies will hire a tech for the least amount they are willing to pay and expect miracles. Bottom line is ..you get what you pay for ....

[mbushaw]

It's not that secretaries aren't important, it's just that in the grand scheme of things, the simulator technician is of more importance. A manager without a secretary is still somehow going to find a way to get the letters out, or to make appointments and such, but if there are no sim techs to properly maintain the equipment that the secretary depends on to generate the revenue for the company in general, then how does the secretary expect to get paid in the future? I don't think the FAA really cares about secretaries, but they have extreme interest in simulator technicicns!!
argue:

I understand what you are saying. But if I can have you read this quote, and really think about what it is saying--

"If there is any one proof of a man's incompetence, it is the stagnant mentality of a worker who, doing some small, routine job in a vast undertaking, does not care to look beyond the lever of a machine, does not choose to know how the machine got there or what makes his job possible, and proclaims that the management of the undertaking is parasitical and unnecessary." Ayn Rand

Not to say what we are doing is small or ever routine, but still a lot of wisdom there.
And I know you were not saying that anyone was unnecessary. But sometimes the 'I'm more important than you are' attitude can lead that way. Much easier to assume that everyone is important. Unless you have actually worked the position you don't know everything that's involved.

My reply actually has nothing to do with your post, I just look for reasons to use that quote.

[Arauthator]

You could always hire a FST with Technical Publications experience. Like myself.

I like that quote posted above. Makes a lot of sense.

I have the capability of doing the secretary work and go out on the Sim to fix something. Doesn't mean I want more money. Doesn't mean I had proper training. But there it is. Just makes my job easier, that's all.

I like to travel from point A to point B in a direct line when possible, cutting out as much as possible for the secretary makes that line I'm marching on a whole lot straighter.

In my opinion, and that is exactly what it is, an opinion and we all know the old saying; but if you are fed up with your wages, life is telling you it's time to move on and start new growth. The stagnation in ones life is what the real issue is. Not the money. Fix your life where it is idle, the money will follow. Concentrate on the money, you get nothing out of life. If a person concentrates on nothing but money, at the funeral they will be saying, here lies Jim, made a lot of money. Lets eat.

What is training? Isn't life experience worth something? If we take out life experience and just go on the presumption that everyone should be trained on EVERYTHING in life, then all of a sudden you have no more people that are qualified to do the work. We all become trainers because that's where the money is.

Training is a 2 part mixture of helping others when needed and learning from people who aren't trained. The newbs ALWAYS come up with something you never seen before. They break things you didn't ever dream that could be broken. So who is training who?

The ONLY way to get good pay is take it. What I mean by that is, band together and form a Union of Flight Sim Techs or a Union at your workplace. The company is trying to save money wherever possible. They aren't going to give you what YOU feel is fair just because they are nice guys. Would you pay a mechanic working on your car 125 bucks an hour because you are a nice guy? No, the ONLY reasons if you are mechanicaly inclined that you are willing to pay a mechanic anything at all is if you are not willing to do it yourself, or you don't have the time. Even then, you are most likely to shop around for the cheapest price.

It's the same concept for a company. But here, they have the option to shit can you at the drop of a hat.

A Union is a band of brothers that sticks up for each other, teaches each other, fights and argues amongst each other, but tells Dad I need more money when it's time to go out on the weekend and also let's Dad know you are comeing down too hard on little Johnny.

Yeah, Little Johnny is a rascal, isn't he? Be that the case, most of the time he's our brother and we like him. Use to be you could take little Johnny out to the shed in the back and ruff him up a bit to set him straight. But the country has become too woosified for that now. So, we gotta' deal with it.

[guest]

More and more people are unionizing these days. Seems to be the trend. I've noticed through the years that alot of guys won't pass on all of their knowledge to the newbies for fear that management might shitcan the senior guys because the new guys will then be able to do the job cheaper. In a non union shop, everyone wants their trump card. In a union shop, there is no need for this trump card because everyone backs everyone else. I've seen good people shit-canned for nothing. I got me looking behind my back and most of my coworkers didn't feel to good about it either. We are working scared. Guess management is laughing their asses off!
jester:

[Arauthator]

You said it brother! I like Union Shops a lot. I have been dumped twice in non union shops for helping others out....well in hind site anyway. I helped 2 Engineers out big time at this one company I worked for, told I was damn good worker for fixing their problems and I was also told by other employees that the company was looking hard for good people to keep and now is the time to shine. I was stripped of all the good things I done, even helping out the manufacturers of these control panels we were buying, credit was given to the Engineers, then I was let go and my job absorbed by the Engineers. Luckily at the time I was doing some CAD work on the side that doubled the current pay I was getting and it just let me go concentrate on that work instead. I made enough to hold me over for 6 months and sit my arse at home. I didn't really like the people anyway. They always got their panties in a wad over trivial stuff and closed their eyes on the big stuff. That same company is in arbitration with the Government over bad Engineering. Plus they've hacked their size down to about half, letting people go that had over 10 - 20 years experience go by the time it was all said and done. Which, with the economy going the way it is, the Train business is REALLY going to be hurting here in the next 2 years. There's Federal funding cut backs coming again.

[PhantomPharter]

I've been in union and non-union shops. Closed shops and otherwise. IAM and Teamsters.Some folks will still hold their "trump cards" in both, if they are paranoid that you might get an edge over them, or they just don't like you because you "are not from around here." I had one at my last shop before this one that even screwed the job up, and tried to make me look bad even before I actually was able to take over and fixing to finish the job-that helped me decide to move on to a better workplace. Union or not, human nature is the same. And it is the same way with management-first line, middle, or upper.scratchch

[gofer]

You could always hire a FST with Technical Publications experience. Like myself.

I like that quote posted above. Makes a lot of sense.

I have the capability of doing the secretary work and go out on the Sim to fix something. Doesn't mean I want more money. Doesn't mean I had proper training. But there it is. Just makes my job easier, that's all.

I like to travel from point A to point B in a direct line when possible, cutting out as much as possible for the secretary makes that line I'm marching on a whole lot straighter.

In my opinion, and that is exactly what it is, an opinion and we all know the old saying; but if you are fed up with your wages, life is telling you it's time to move on and start new growth. The stagnation in ones life is what the real issue is. Not the money. Fix your life where it is idle, the money will follow. Concentrate on the money, you get nothing out of life. If a person concentrates on nothing but money, at the funeral they will be saying, here lies Jim, made a lot of money. Lets eat.

What is training? Isn't life experience worth something? If we take out life experience and just go on the presumption that everyone should be trained on EVERYTHING in life, then all of a sudden you have no more people that are qualified to do the work. We all become trainers because that's where the money is.

Training is a 2 part mixture of helping others when needed and learning from people who aren't trained. The newbs ALWAYS come up with something you never seen before. They break things you didn't ever dream that could be broken. So who is training who?

The ONLY way to get good pay is take it. What I mean by that is, band together and form a Union of Flight Sim Techs or a Union at your workplace. The company is trying to save money wherever possible. They aren't going to give you what YOU feel is fair just because they are nice guys. Would you pay a mechanic working on your car 125 bucks an hour because you are a nice guy? No, the ONLY reasons if you are mechanicaly inclined that you are willing to pay a mechanic anything at all is if you are not willing to do it yourself, or you don't have the time. Even then, you are most likely to shop around for the cheapest price.

It's the same concept for a company. But here, they have the option to shit can you at the drop of a hat.

A Union is a band of brothers that sticks up for each other, teaches each other, fights and argues amongst each other, but tells Dad I need more money when it's time to go out on the weekend and also let's Dad know you are comeing down too hard on little Johnny.

Yeah, Little Johnny is a rascal, isn't he? Be that the case, most of the time he's our brother and we like him. Use to be you could take little Johnny out to the shed in the back and ruff him up a bit to set him straight. But the country has become too woosified for that now. So, we gotta' deal with it.

box2: I agree that newbies do help us to learn or at least refresh what we know. But UNIONS? Not all shops will even consider it. It's more like - "if you don't like your current situation - leave". And demanding more because you are training someone - just won't fly. "Why pay more when we can make him/her do it for nothing more". I drew up a training proposal at my workplace and was about to present it and I asked my self " what if they say - "nice proposal and we agree - now it's your job to get it done". and at the same wage?!!! I really don't think so. Why bother really? Currently I am training a newbie because I want to. He is a motivated individual and a very good person. But as for others I could care less. I even told my newbie - this is between you and me... should any of this go to anyone else without my permission - it ends the same day.
It all comes for no respect, no real motivational factor (evals are a joke and those who do nothing get the same as those that break their backs) - no lateral or vertical promotion possibilities; no training, bad documentation (all generic) and no-one - even management really cares.

[mnttech]

With the new release of FAR 60, there is nothing in it about technician training other than on the Quality Management System (QMS). I guess they did not want to open that door.