Laser Display

[rabyson1]

Have any simulator manufacturers started using laser display technology in lieu of the traditional projector system? If so, what are the thoughts on this technology. Give Pros and Cons if available. Also list manufacturers using this technology and vendor information for the laser system. This is applicable for visual systems on simulators "OTW" view. wiggle1:

[Solo]

The last I heard on the subject was that they (laser projectors) were not yet able to produce Level-D results to the FAA's satisfaction.

[Axeman]

The only folks I've heard of doing this successfully is E&S. I haven't seen it, and I don't know anyone who's worked on it, but I'm told it looked really cool at ITSEC.

Here's a spec sheet:

http://www.es.com/products/pdf/eslp_datasheet.pdf

[MAllen]

Thales is also working on a system called VLP ?Vector Light Point?. It was also demonstrated during ITSEC and was very well received.

[Jeff]

Have any simulator manufacturers started using laser display technology in lieu of the traditional projector system? If so, what are the thoughts on this technology. Give Pros and Cons if available. Also list manufacturers using this technology and vendor information for the laser system. This is applicable for visual systems on simulators "OTW" view. wiggle1:
I remember reading an engineering article about this some years ago. The problem were making it a scanning laser and using three color laser beams to define a color raster. I believe the Army experimented with this for large screen helo sims. The 'projector' had a spinning mirrors to create a raster scan. Thus it was part electronic, part mechanical. I don't know of an operational sim that ever used this technology.

[Axeman]

The f-18 sim at MCAS Beaufort SC had a lasar target projection system. They looked like big upright pinball tables up against the dome. 35 watt red argon lasers, I believe they were, with lots of spinning mirrors. They were a bear to align and keep aligned, and they were dangerous to boot. I watched a tech burn a hole in his sleeve one night in a moments inattention....

I will say the images they put out looked really good when the system was aligned right.

Oh yeah, and the red dye the system used was hazmat......

[Hornet01]

The F18 sims at NAS Lemoore have been upgraded to a laser out of the window display. It uses 7 (maybe 8 in the future) laser projectors to project the OTW display. Resolution is excellent and the brightness is better in than the older systems I have seen. They may be a tad expensive to maintain but if the Navy would buy a better visual databsae, they could look very good. The laser system was designed by a German Company (GenOptik I think and now a part of Rheinmetall) and installed under contract thru L3. The first dome was RFT last year. The second dome (I think) may have already been accepted. Next up are the f18 domes in Oceana and I believe work is in progress there.

[Axeman]

The F18 sims at NAS Lemoore have been upgraded to a laser out of the window display. It uses 7 (maybe 8 in the future) laser projectors to project the OTW display. Resolution is excellent and the brightness is better in than the older systems I have seen. They may be a tad expensive to maintain but if the Navy would buy a better visual databsae, they could look very good. The laser system was designed by a German Company (GenOptik I think and now a part of Rheinmetall) and installed under contract thru L3. The first dome was RFT last year. The second dome (I think) may have already been accepted. Next up are the f18 domes in Oceana and I believe work is in progress there.

The 2E7 F-18 domes at Lemoore were my very first sims in 1985!! Do they still have the SRL target projectors on them?

[Hornet01]

Axeman,

I believe the SRL target stuff is resting in pieces (probably in Ogden). The T4 domes have been converted to F/A-18F sims with the new laser OTW projector system. The target projectors are made by Sogitec (French) and now have 7 pairs! OFT 1 has been retired (junked) and there are two E/F TOFTs (Tactical OFTs) that can be networked with the two E/F domes to fly a 4 ship.

The other domes (T1?) are still C/D and they have done some target projector upgrades there too. Not sure what lot C/Ds they are though.

[Axeman]

Axeman,

I believe the SRL target stuff is resting in pieces (probably in Ogden). The T4 domes have been converted to F/A-18F sims with the new laser OTW projector system. The target projectors are made by Sogitec (French) and now have 7 pairs! OFT 1 has been retired (junked) and there are two E/F TOFTs (Tactical OFTs) that can be networked with the two E/F domes to fly a 4 ship.

The other domes (T1?) are still C/D and they have done some target projector upgrades there too. Not sure what lot C/Ds they are though.

I was there about 4 years ago (last bid cycle) for a walk through, and they were in the midst of several of these mods. I saw the TOFT's- they were really cool!! 2E7 #1 and OFT #1 were my first sims........ soppy:

I was once an SRL tgt projector god, as well as a SASS, CSCIU, SEU Paragon Pacific guru. My Gould chops were pretty solid, too........

Someday, they're gonna junk me, too...... huh4:

For right now, I run the worlds most cutting edge sims. I can't believe the stuff we're bringing in here!!! It boggles my brain, and keeps me awake at night.....arms: scared:

[Hornet01]

How's this for old home week. I separated from the Air Force in '85 and went to work for Sperry in Reston, VA. My first field trip was in late '85 to good old NAS Lemoore to rehost OFT 1! SEL 77s to a Gould 67 something. As I recall, we were there from October 'till Christmas and probably came back in January for acceptance. Seems like we always sold stuff off around Christmas!

Stayed with the SperryHoneywellHughesLinkRaytheon folks until 97 and made more than a few trips to Lemoore and other exciting?? sites. The new TOFTs are pretty neat. Not sure they're as easy to take care of as the old OFTs but they do a lot more and I gotta admit the linked up 1 vs 1 duel is very addictive! burnout:

[Axeman]

Was OFT 1 the one in the Butler hut across the parking lot or was it the one in the building with the WST's? I thought they put Gould 32/87's on both, but my memory is bad and that was a long time ago.....

I was there from Oct 85 until about March 86, then I transferred to El Toro. I hired on with the Hughes crew when they took over from whoever that was that got thrown off the contract after about a year (RCA?). My first sim job, fresh out of the Navy.

[Hornet01]

Yep, OFT 1 was in the old Butler building. I believe there had been an old model board visual on an A7 in there before. 32-67 sounds possible. I can never keep the numbers straight! I believe one of my old compadres from Sperry took the 77s home and had them running in his basement!

They've added another addition to the building at Lemoore to house the new F18 DMT (Distributed Mission Training) devices. I believe OFT 5 (formerly in Cecil now in Oceana) has been retired also.

I was at El Toro once not too long after the OFT was installed to add occulter boards to the Vital and some other minor cockpit mod. As I remember (or don't remember) the 2E7s were at El Toro well before the OFT arrived. The OFT was in a different building and not too close to the 2E7 building. I can't even guess at what year that was. 86 seems too early and I think El Toro got the last OFT off the line.

I have some pictures of OFT 1 on it's last day in service. I'm on a road trip right now but I'll see if I can find them and post them here on the board.

[Axeman]

I was at El toro from 86 through 92, then I was the Site Manager from 95-98. I loved that shop when I ran it. I had a GREAT crew, and we ran a good show. I was really bummed when the Gov't took it away from us a year early and sole sourced it back to Hughes (or was it Raytheon by then?)

[fakeplanefixer]

I listened to a lecture on the new laser visual that is in use in the Germany. Looked pretty good from the pictures I saw. biggrin:

[simulator757]

This was discussed last week at the FSEMC in Bangkok. While it looks as if the future will be in laser systems (my opinion), the current set back is cost. Just like anything else, the cost will drop and tubes will be a thing of the past.

[little jake]

Does anyone know if the laser system has been OK'd for level D sims. Last I heard no, only up to level C.

[Textech]

http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/index.php?lang=3&fid=734

[unijoint]

DLH in Germany currently have a level D sim with a the Rheinemetal laser projector. It was provided Free Of Charge to DLH in order to get a level D certification. I have not seen it, but i have spoken with people who have and by all accounts it is 'ok'. Not good or great! It meets level D just!
But so did the thomson visa and the SPACE/Phebus projector systems and we all know what a piece of junk they were!

E & S the standard bearers ( or so they kept telling everyone ) of the laser technology have now metamorphed into Rockwell collins and no longer believe in the laser projector! The same people touting it for years, now say it is crap! funny that eh!

As for the DLH device, it is expensive and it is NOT maintenance free. Yes the light source lasts for years, but the fibre optic feeding it doesn't. It yellows because ( wait for it) you are passing lots of light through it!

You have to go up top and every few weeks cut 6 or 8 inches off of the end of the fibre optic and reset it all. So rather than throw away expensive CRT's every year or two, you now throw away a piece of expensive fibre optic every few weeks! What's the point!

JVC with a commerical projector are doing it cheaper and better all over the world with the HD2k and now the RS1. lots of light, lots of pixels and no alignment worries and no laser lights shining in my eyes either!

sounds good enough to me!cuss:

[Simmi]

I understand that it is only temporary and that a standard projection system bill be put back.

I also know that it is OK in Military devices because the InfraRed night vision goggles can be used.

DLH = Deutsche Lufthansa or more importantly, Luftahnasa Flight Training.

Ciao Bella


DLH in Germany currently have a level D sim with a the Rheinemetal laser projector. It was provided Free Of Charge to DLH in order to get a level D certification. I have not seen it, but i have spoken with people who have and by all accounts it is 'ok'. Not good or great! It meets level D just!
But so did the thomson visa and the SPACE/Phebus projector systems and we all know what a piece of junk they were!

E & S the standard bearers ( or so they kept telling everyone ) of the laser technology have now metamorphed into Rockwell collins and no longer believe in the laser projector! The same people touting it for years, now say it is crap! funny that eh!

As for the DLH device, it is expensive and it is NOT maintenance free. Yes the light source lasts for years, but the fibre optic feeding it doesn't. It yellows because ( wait for it) you are passing lots of light through it!

You have to go up top and every few weeks cut 6 or 8 inches off of the end of the fibre optic and reset it all. So rather than throw away expensive CRT's every year or two, you now throw away a piece of expensive fibre optic every few weeks! What's the point!

JVC with a commerical projector are doing it cheaper and better all over the world with the HD2k and now the RS1. lots of light, lots of pixels and no alignment worries and no laser lights shining in my eyes either!

sounds good enough to me!cuss:

[MAllen]

I understand that it is only temporary and that a standard projection system bill be put back.

I also know that it is OK in Military devices because the InfraRed night vision goggles can be used.

DLH = Deutsche Lufthansa or more importantly, Luftahnasa Flight Training.

Ciao Bella

"Infrared night vision goggles" You’re dating yourself... that type of equip. was being phased out back in the early 70's. It was replaced with "starlight" and later with thermo imaging. Worked on that stuff when I first went in the Army. Damn that was a long time ago.

[Simmi]

"Infrared night vision goggles" You’re dating yourself... that type of equip. was being phased out back in the early 70's. It was replaced with "starlight" and later with thermo imaging. Worked on that stuff when I first went in the Army. Damn that was a long time ago.

Yep, an old fart, that's me lolup: Got my freedom pass in 82..
So - Um, I guess then whatever they train with these days with InfraRed..

[unijoint]

I do not thin the plan is to remove it. not easy to re certify the sim at such short notice. the option to remove was there if it didn't get level D i think.

iterestingly though, these people did a presentation at FSEMC and despite lots of questions from the audience would not give a price for the laser projector.

Am still waiting to see the VLP from Thales- not sure what it sounds like but if it is anything like there last few projectors it will be overpriced and hard to fix

[Simmi]

Seems you have a direct link there to DLH/LFT unijoint. Since it's the parent company of the simshop I work for, we are generally the last to know anything. So you may be more current with your info.

[unijoint]

Never judge a man til you have walked a mile in his shoes.
When you have walked a mile in his shoes you can then say whatever you like as he is a mile away and you've got his shoes!

[stocky]

We had the chance to have a look at the Laser Visual system currently installed at Lufthansa Frankfurt.
We also had a talk to some of teh people from the company whhich manufacture the system (Rheinmetall).
Visual looks good although colors look a bit strange (too much color intensity).
Systems specs sound good too but no clue about maintenance yet as it was just installed when we got there.

[stocky]

oh and yes, they told us about cutting the fibre optic some inches every XX weeks which seems to be pretty expensive as well.

[markovol]

We heard that there was some of the maintenance that could only be done by the company who made it or someone who had gone through the training. Sounded good but the upkeep cost did seem high for the Laser system.

With the service or lack of it from Rockwell the industry could use some competition.

[Simmi]

oh and yes, they told us about cutting the fibre optic some inches every XX weeks which seems to be pretty expensive as well.

Yeah, I understand that it is no big deal but the laser is only running at 30% power output and about every 150 hours or so, the cable must be cut again. I hate to think what it would be like runing at a higher power level.

I want to add that apart from the quality of the image, the visual database has also to be tweeked because the detail on buildings and the like may look a little strange and this aspect alone will cause visual engineers to probably flip and the costs start skyrocketing.

All of these things were unseen consequences and I guess the manufacturers are working very hard to resolve these issues.

Do not count out this system just yet though - they are still used in the military sims and I guess Laser Visuals will continue to be used for some time. Money is no object for them.

[cgsimtech]

Yeah, I understand that it is no big deal but the laser is only running at 30% power output and about every 150 hours or so, the cable must be cut again. I hate to think what it would be like runing at a higher power level.


I've never worked on Laser Visuals before but I fail to see how a fibre optic can degrade to the point where you need to re-cut it. Is the power (brightness) so much that it actually burns the fibre? huh4::confusedsheadscrat

[markovol]

Apparently ....it's a scheduled pm...I think the major problem are the ends near the connector...

[Simmi]

I've never worked on Laser Visuals before but I fail to see how a fibre optic can degrade to the point where you need to re-cut it. Is the power (brightness) so much that it actually burns the fibre? huh4::confusedsheadscrat

Hole in onearms:

There is no need for projectors any more and the quasi projectors on top of the flightdeck are small and light and need little or no maintenance. With the light source no longer generated at the point of projection, the optical cables carry the entire image, so yes - it has to be bright.

I cannot tell you anymore than that cg. As a side note, this information is not first hand from my own experience. The sim in question is not located in our shop but in another division of the company and I do not want to give the impression that I know it all - but I do like to keep up with the news :winkie:

[cgsimtech]

Hole in onearms:

There is no need for projectors any more and the quasi projectors on top of the flightdeck are small and light and need little or no maintenance. With the light source no longer generated at the point of projection, the optical cables carry the entire image, so yes - it has to be bright.:winkie:

Very interesting. So you would think they would come up with a fibre optic cable with ratings much like a wire is rated (gauged) for handling power. I assume the quasi projectors are similar to Barco projectors where all you need is to replace the light bulb every what? 700 hours or so?
I saw a presentation from Barco once where they were boasting their LCD projectors. But when questions came up about black level, they frowned and stated their engineers were working on that problem. Matter of fact, LCD projectors have always had problems with establishing black levels. banghead: