Immigration

[reprob8]

Sorry Repob8,

I dozed off reading your article.

I did have one thing to point out.

Disclaimer: I have nothing against the hispanic community and I know deep in my heart that they are an intgral part of my society, being from Texas.

Now .....

Let's analyze something.

Many folks call these people that come across our borders (and subsequently taking our tax-paid monies for their benefit) illegal aliens. Well, all of the sudden it seems that "illegal alien" is a politically incorrect label.

Well, they did come across the border "illegally"

They are aliens (not citizens).

Now ... Congress wants to OK if they've been in the country for a while (grant amnesty for aliens who've lived in the US for 7 years).

Does that mean I can rob banks (illegal) for 7 years and if I'm not caught I should be granted amnesty?

Get my point? Huh? DuhYa, Huh?, Duhya?

Hey Bluesman:

I think we can distill your point to the following: They're breaking the law. Therefore, why should we reward lawbreakers by granting them amnesty?

However, amnesty is a doctrine that's been around, since biblical times. Was not Barabas granted amnesty by the Roman pro-consul to Judea? Were not southern secessionists granted amnesty, for crimes far more egregious, beginning with proclamations issued by Lincoln and Johnson, and culminating in the Amensty Act of 1872? Are not pardons granted by presidents and governors, some for crimes for which there have yet to be an indictments? Amnesty was granted for some illegal aliens as part of the Immigration Reform Act of 1986.

Personally, I don?t think either alternative offered so far is workable.

The House?s plan, calling declaring illegals as felons, and building a fence across our southern border strikes me as being not only unworkable, draconian, expensive, and ultimately doomed to failure, but also failing to address the root causes for illegal immigration. And until that issue is addressed, illegal immigration will continue to be a problem. I wonder why no such plan is offered for the Canadian border.

Bush?s plan continues to assure ?business as usual.? Guest workers are allowed in on the pretext that they do jobs that no American will do. Besides the obvious non-sequitor, since allowing them in actually allows for the depression of those wages to the extent that no American will accept them, it also opens up these guest workers to further exploitation by those who will benefit ultimately from such a program; and it is not the those at the bottom of the economic food chain. There?s also the danger of expanding the business sectors which will be elegible to benefit from such programs in the future.

PS: I didn't mean to bore you with that article. But look at the money you save on sleep medication.:biggrin:

[The Pirate]

to para-phrase goerge lopez, tv and comedy star, "why do we call mexican illegals wet backs? do we call canadian illegals snow backs? oh, wait, canadians don't want to come here, except to florida in the winter!!"



another thought, if bush and chenney and rummy find out there is oil under the great white north, do you think he'll start some stuff with them?

hhmmm.......
take off, eh!!
hoser.

[reprob8]

...another thought, if bush and chenney and rummy find out there is oil under the great white north, do you think he'll start some stuff with them?

hhmmm.......
take off, eh!!
hoser.

All they have to do is make some nasty remark about how much their beer sucks, and the fight is on. Remember John Candy in Canadian Bacon?biggrin:

[bluesman]

There is oil in Alberta. Near Fort McMurray there are large oilfields called "tarsands". The tar just oozes out of the ground. In the last decade or so they have found more efficient ways to process it. But we stray from the point here.
Here's another thing to consider:
Take a survey of illegal mexican immigrants and see how many have drivers license and/or insurance. Heck, see if they even have a car registration. I bet if you search their car/truck for this all you'll find is mud and empty Coors Light cans, and a cracked windshield (seems that's always the case).

Please don't misconstrue what I'm saying. I have many hispanic friends. Except, all of them are either born and raised here or immigrated legally.

[reprob8]

...Take a survey of illegal mexican immigrants and see how many have drivers license and/or insurance. Heck, see if they even have a car registration. I bet if you search their car/truck for this all you'll find is mud and empty Coors Light cans, and a cracked windshield (seems that's always the case)...

I guess the same could be said for our home-grown goobers found in such cosmopolitan regions of the country as Mississippi, Arkansas, West Virginia, and Kentucky.

PS: Not all all illegal immigrants to this country are Mexican. That's somewhat of too broad a generalization. I sure quite that substantial number are those that have over-stayed their visas, and go by such names as Hans or Nigel.

[The Pirate]

I guess the same could be said for our home-grown goobers found in such cosmopolitan regions of the country as Mississippi, Arkansas, West Virginia, and Kentucky.

PS: Not all all illegal immigrants to this country are Mexican. That's somewhat of too broad a generalization. I sure quite that substantial number are those that have over-stayed their visas, and go by such names as Hans or Nigel.
your news is not new to me, as you can see by my profile, the capital of south america, i understand fully that not all illegals are of mexican origin. this area seems to be the favorite entry point for most every country. i hold no grudge against legal immigrants, but as you say, the problem is especially intense where i live, as we are over-run with immigrants of all origins, and of all situations, over staying visas, overstaying work/school/special worker status, illegals ,etc. the stay home and show them day here had a very small impact, as most illegals and all legals went to work, as they feared the government would come get them if they stayed home and looked guilty. the only things that shut down were gloria estefans 3 resturaunts and 2 high rise construction sites. i found the only way to fix the problem at this end, is to move, start over again, pick one of the less favored states, and hope i can make a difference in other ways, as there is no other help coming. we are indeed a nation built of and from immigrants. even the john birch'ers way would be foolish, as even the original native americans were immigrants, but a pot can only hold so much water, and then it overflows. i can identify the problem, i just don't have the fix. i guess i'll see ya in the summer when the snowbirds fly north.

[bluesman]

Reprob8,

I'm sure you are right. There are probably many of the home-grown goobers taking advantage of our social services as well and living outside the law. Heck, I'm related to some of them.

But the current issue is illegal immigrants from Mexico. I know you probably have a closer sentiment to this topic, being hispanic. But please don't let this bias your opinions.

My overall thoughts are this: What gives them the right to protest and chant their American patriotism if they haven't taken the steps to follow our laws and procedures. I'm sure some have but got caught up in red tape.

Citizenship does have to be earned, even if you are born here. It's every Americans responsibility to take part in shaping our Country into the finest in the world. This means obeying her laws, taking part in social services to benefit those in need, paying taxes, and on and on. Lots of work to be done here.

Yes, most of us descend from immigrants. The laws were different then. It is a reflection of our changing society, which is exactly what we are trying to accomplish now. To adapt to new challenges. Until a resolution is made, however, everyone, foreign or domestic, needs to abide by the law of the land.

[phakeflyer]

I recieved this in an e-mail and I, for one like the way this guy thinks.

Mexican Standoff

I don't know how everybody else feels about it, but to me I think Hispanic people in this country, legally or illegally, made a huge public relations mistake with their recent demonstrations.

I don't blame anybody in the world for wanting to come to the United States of America, as it is a truly wonderful place. But when the first thing you do when you set foot on American soil is illegal it is flat out wrong and I don't care how many lala land left heads come out of the woodwork and start trying to give me sensitivity lessons.

I don't need sensitivity lessons, in fact I don't have anything against Mexicans! I just have something against criminals and anybody who comes into this country illegally is a criminal and if you don't believe it try coming into America from a foreign country without a passport and see how far you get.

What disturbs me about the demonstrations is that it's tantamount to saying, "I am going! to come into your country even if it means breaking your laws and there's nothing you can do about it."

It's an "in your face" action and speaking just for me I don't like it one little bit and if there were a half dozen pairs of gonads in Washington bigger than English peas it wouldn't be happening.

Where are you, you bunch of lily livered, pantywaist, forked tongued, sorry excuses for defenders of The Constitution? Have you been drinking the water out of the Potomac again? And even if you pass a bill on immigration it will probably be so pork laden and watered down that it won't mean anything anyway. Besides, what good is an other law going to do when you won't enforce the ones on the books now?

And what ever happened to the polls guys? I thought you folks were the quintessential finger wetters. Well you sure ain' paying any attention to the polls this time because somewhere around eighty percent of Americans want something done about this mess, and mess it is! and getting bigger everyday.

This is no longer a problem, it is a dilemma and headed for being a tragedy.

Do you honestly think that what happened in France with the Muslims can't happen here when the businesses who hire these people finally run out of jobs and a few million disillusioned Hispanics take to the streets?

If you, Mr. President, Congressmen and Senators, knuckle under on this and refuse to do something meaningful it means that you care nothing for the kind of country your children and grandchildren will inherit. But I guess that doesn't matter as long as you get re-elected. Shame on you.

One of the big problems in America today is that if you have the nerve
to say anything derogatory about any group of people (except Christians) you are going to be screamed at by the media and called a racist, a bigot and anything else they can think of to call you.

Well I've been pounded by the media before and I'm still rockin' and rollin' and when it comes to speaking the truth I fear not. And the truth is that the gutless, gonadless, milksop politicians are just about to sell out the United States of America because they don't have the intestinal fortitude to stand up to the face reality.

And reality is that we would never allow any other group of people to have 12 million illegals in this country and turn around and say, "Oh it's ok, ya'll can stay here if you'll just allow us to slap your wrist."

And I know that some of you who read this column are saying "Well
what's wrong with that?"

I'll tell you what's wrong with it. These people could be from Mars as
far as we know. We don't know who they are, where they are or what they're
up to and the way the Congress is going we're not going to.

Does this make sense? Labor force you say? We already subsidize corporate agriculture as it is, must we subsidize their labor as well?

If these people were from Haiti would we be so fast to turn a blind eye to them or if they were from Somalia or Afghanistan? I think not.

All the media shows us are pictures of hard working Hispanics who have crossed the border just to try to better their life. They don't show you pictures of the Feds rounding up members of MS 13, the violent gang who came across the same way the decent folks did. They don't tell you about the living conditions of the Mexican illegal's some fat cat hired to pick his crop.

I want to make two predictions. No. 1: This situation is going to grow and fester until it erupts in violence on our streets while the wimps in Washington drag their toes in the dirt and try to figure how many tons of political hay they can make to the acre.

No 2: Somebody is going to cross that border with some kind of weapon of mass destruction and set it off in a major American city after which there will be a backlash such as this country has never experienced and the Capitol building in Washington will probably tilt as Congressmen and Senators rush to the other side of the issue.

I don't know about you but I would love to see just one major politician stand up and say, "I don't care who I make mad and I don't care how many votes I lose, this is a desperate situation and I'm going to lead the fight to get it straightened out."

I don't blame anybody for wanting to come to America, but if you don't respect our immigration laws why should you respect any others. And by the way, this is America and our flag has stars and stripes.
Please get that other one out of my face.

What do you think? scratchch

Charlie Daniels
April 10, 2006

[Egyptian]

I have a Russian wife who is waiting for a green card. I can understand why so many bypass the legal channels. Getting it legally is very expenive and time consuming. When the USCIS could not give me anything more than programed answers on the phone the other day, I just about lost it. She will continue to wait, but she is of the opinion if it does not happen soon, she will leave the USA and never return. The paper work and hassle is worse than what she had seen in either the Soviet Union or the Russian Federation. And we think we are progressive.

Let the Mexicans and anyone else who wants to come here come, just make sure they go thru the same thing my wife is going thru.

Egyptian.

[reprob8]

Charlie Daniels

I thought for the longest time that Charlie Daniels was cracked?Now I?m convinced.

I have not forgotten Daniels, and other such brave Americans like Toby Keith, never hesitated to question the patriotism of those who were opposed to Bush?s war in Iraq though never having put on a uniform himself.

Now he somehow makes the illogical leap that the swarthy hordes from south of the border are the only ones capable of taking to the streets if disillusioned enough. Here?s a clue, Charlie, disillusionment is not a function of ethnicity or race. Look up the Bonus March on Washington for an example, or the draft riots during the Civil War. Identifying all illegal immigrants as Mexicans serves only to expose his level of ignorance and bigotry.

More ignorance?MS13 (Mara Salvatrucha) did not come across the border illegally. Their genesis was the result of Salvadoran immigrants who found it necessary to create their own gang as a defense against homegrown gangs in L.A. I?m not defending them, just correcting Daniels? assertions masquerading as fact. More on MS13 below.

Daniels also forgets that the people responsible for 9-11 came into this country legally. In addition, the millennium bomber was stopped at the border crossing between the US and Canada, not the crossing at Ciudad Juarez. I have heard security analysts say that the most likely entry into the US of a dirty bomb, or other such attack, will be through our ports system, of which probably less than 5% of the incoming cargo is inspected, not the Rio Grande.

It is so-called Christians from Daniels end of the political spectrum who now claim that they?re victims of bigotry and oppression. Christians such Anne Coulter, who at Republican Party gathering referred to Arabs as ?rag heads?. It was a Christian in the form of Billy Graham?s son, Franklin, who called Islam a wicked religion; it is Christians such as Fallwell and Robertson who called Mohammed a terrorist and said that Islam preaches violence. They still get face time on CNN, MSNBC, and Faux News. I doubt that Daniels has called them to task for their comments.

And it?s not just illegals that pick crops that live in conditions of abject poverty, Charlie. Legal immigrants and American citizens also work those fields, in Florida sugar plantations, and California mega-farms. Some are still trying to unionize, but I don?t think Daniels has ever uttered a peep in their support.

Finally, I wonder how upset Daniels gets when he sees the Irish flag during Saint Patrick?s Day, the Italian flag during Columbus day, or better yet the Confederate flag worn by many of his fans?Think treason and sedition, Charlie.

Charlie Daniels?Red, white, and bull.

Pirate and Bluesman:

First of all, What is the capital of South America? Miami??

True, these people are breaking the law and they know it. That having been said, we all have to admit that there are conditions severe enough that can drive us to commit an illegal act if it means our own survival. Understand too that these people coming across the border didn?t just wake up one day and say, ?Gee, I think I?ll cross illegally into the United States.? I would venture that the vast majority who cross the border illegally are those who come from smaller villages that have been left behind as result of these countries? economic shift to export oriented economies, and industrialization. Those kind of economic forces can and do have a very disruptive effect across those sections of the population most vulnerable to such change. Arable land that was once used for subsistence farming is shifted towards production of export crops and beef. What use to be diet staples grown locally are now imported at prices that the dispossessed cannot afford.

Absent any kind of social safety net, such as we find in Western Europe, the spiral down the economic sinkhole accelerates. Even if a country such as Mexico wanted to establish anything that resembles a social safety net, which I doubt it wants to, their financial situation is too tenuous, given the IMF and World Bank constraints they have to operate under. I know of at least two instances in which the Mexican peso was devalued in the past twenty years, leading to almost triple digit inflation, as the result of the abrupt pullout of foreign capital investment. First directive was to reduce government expenditures. It?s happened not just in Mexico, but several Latin American countries.

And believe me, the Mexican government wants the status quo as it now stands, since the illegal population is sending much needed dollars back home. It works out great for everyone but the illegal immigrant, and the average Joe in this country. The Mexican economy gets an influx of much-needed dollars, its government doesn?t have to spend Dime One on health care, infrastructure development, etc., and its wages are sufficiently low as result that it creates a profitable climate for our companies to open plants there.

Consider too political instability. MS13, as I said earlier was the started by Salvadoran immigrants, many illegal, in L.A. as a defense against other homegrown L.A. gangs. I wrote a paper on El Salvador several years ago, and found an interesting item about how some 500,000 Salvadorans entered the US between 1977 and 1983, half of which settled in the southern California region. Why? Years of electoral fraud by a government run by its military and oligarchy, led to demonstrations for a democratic and economic opening. The government?s response was repression and murder on a mass scale. Jesuits, union leaders, students, and newspaper editors were tagged as subversive, which at the time was the equivalent of a death sentence. By 1981, it was being reported that upwards of 800 people a month were being killed as result of what Amnesty International called extra-judicial executions. What we did during that period, especially during the 1980s, was to send its government more money and weapons with which to kill their own people. The same problem was happening in next door in Guatemala.

In Central America, during that period, the one country that did make a transition towards a domestically oriented economy was Nicaragua. This was a country in which production of beef had increased since the 1960s, yet saw the internal consumption of the same decline. Since the overthrow of Samoza in 1979, schools were built; health clinics were established along with farm cooperatives. The infant mortality rate, due mainly to the lack of potable water, began to decline. Yet despite what Reagan and his cronies did, we never saw a mass migration of illegals from that country to the US.

My point is that unless we as a government make a concerted effort to force these countries to make a commitment towards making sure that their focus is internal development across all levels, economic, health, educational, instead focusing strictly on an export oriented economy, then we?ll be importing more than just Guess jeans across our southern border.

[The Pirate]

I have a Russian wife who is waiting for a green card. I can understand why so many bypass the legal channels. Getting it legally is very expenive and time consuming. When the USCIS could not give me anything more than programed answers on the phone the other day, I just about lost it. She will continue to wait, but she is of the opinion if it does not happen soon, she will leave the USA and never return. The paper work and hassle is worse than what she had seen in either the Soviet Union or the Russian Federation. And we think we are progressive.

Let the Mexicans and anyone else who wants to come here come, just make sure they go thru the same thing my wife is going thru.

Egyptian.
USSR, Russian Federation, aren't they on the "pay bribe, get what you want" system?
but i do agree they should have to go throught he system, sorry about the hassle with your wife, a previous co-worker had the same problem. the system can be rough on people from that part of the country.. i would blame it on the tv specials about the mail order bride system all the channels did a couple of years back. now everone is suspect. good luck.

[Egyptian]

Hardly mail order, we have been married for 3 years now. Just that we spent most of it in Saudi Arabia and Egypt. You are right about the corruption there, but she says it is just as bad here.

Egyptian

[Simmi]

My point is that unless we as a government make a concerted effort to force these countries to make a commitment towards making sure that their focus is internal development across all levels, economic, health, educational, instead focusing strictly on an export oriented economy, then we?ll be importing more than just Guess jeans across our southern border.


http://pictures.bushtorrent.com:85/upload/osama-jose.jpg
Liten to him Amigo's.. haha..
Hasta La Vista baby..

[MAllen]

Reprob8

Disregarding your opinion of Charlie Daniels (another entertainer using they?re notoriety as a public forum), I found you really on track until that last paragraph. Am I to believe that you?re advocating direct interference in other country?s governments? This would seem to contradict points you have made in many past posting on this board. Anyway a great post.

[reprob8]

Simmi:

I found your picture post very insulting...I do not smoke cigars.:biggrin:

MAllen:

Thanks, and you are right. To say "force" was a very poor choice of words on my part.

Be that as it may, it still behooves us to impress upon these countries need for that kind of development. Otherwise it is only a matter of time before disaster strikes both sides of the border. Example: Mexico City is ringed by shanty towns of what some estimate to be about 2 million people, who are not counted as part of the city's population. These are people internally displaced within the country due to extreme poverty. Potable water is non-existent, and many spend their days scavenging for food and other items in the city's landfills. It is a public health disaster of biblical proportions waiting to happen. The rich could care less, given hundreds of years of a caudillo mentality that still believes in class privilege. So to them, so what if they leave the country and cross ilegally into the US. Not only are they now the US's problem, but hell, it means more US dollars flowing back into the country.

PS: I don't begrudge Charlie Daniels' right to an opinion, with or without celebrity status attached to it. But I wish it was better informed.

[Simmi]

Reprob8:
Then how about one of these..fruit:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/61/Cheech-chong.jpg

I have not previously heard of Charlie Daniels, so I guess you could say I come from Venus or something.. But I do like his style, even if the content is a little flawed.

I don't much keep up with US Politics any more, I have not the time for it. However, I do keep a close eye on the immigration rumor mill, because as a simtech that can work anywhere, it is an issue that affects me sorely.

J.

[reprob8]

Simmi:

How about a bong with a one-shot bowl?clap:

Waste not, want not.:biggrin:

[The Pirate]

Reprob8:
Then how about one of these..fruit:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/61/Cheech-chong.jpg

I have not previously heard of Charlie Daniels, so I guess you could say I come from Venus or something.. But I do like his style, even if the content is a little flawed.

I don't much keep up with US Politics any more, I have not the time for it. However, I do keep a close eye on the immigration rumor mill, because as a simtech that can work anywhere, it is an issue that affects me sorely.

J.
charlie daniels, as in the charlie daniels band, as in "the devil went down to georgia, he was lookin for a soul to steal, workin overtime and he was way behind, and he was lookin to make a deal.", and "the souths gonna do it again", big, hairy, wears a huge cowboy hat and plays a country/rock fiddle like it was part of him. i'm sure his era may be beyond your years, but unless you lived in a cave for quite some time, the radio had to have played one of his songs by accident while you were listening. he is also a supporter of veterans of all wars, and supports the troops without the usual other requirement that you must support the war. also known for smart, down to earth patriotism that is directed here at home first and foremost. just my $.02.

p.s. i think the two guys carrying that log are charlie and willie, and the boys!!!

[reprob8]

Willie's in a class all by himself.

An American icon!

Sorry, Pirate, I've heard some of the remarks Daniels made about those opposed to the war. I'm not sure that the quotes attributed to him qualify as sensible. My .02. I call.

What can we get for four cents? Not that joint for sure.cryaby:

[The Pirate]

other peoples opinions are just that. didn't mean to represent all of mr. daniels views as good, just the one's i hear and agree with. i don't have the chop's you do as far as fully immersed in these matters. as you chose to get involved in what interests you, i also choose to filter most of what i hear and pick up what interests me. i guess it goes back to a check in i got from an old crusty CW04 that was the div. officer at my first real non schools assignment. his only orders were; "Don't believe anything you hear, or half of the things you actually see for yourself."
i read your posts with interest and believe you have strong opinions about them., and i look forward to reading more in the future.
.00, check.

[reprob8]

Fair enough, Pirate. We may disagree, but you have my full respect.biggthump

So what do we do with the four cents we've pooled?

Deposit on a new crown and scepter for King George?

[The Pirate]

i know i'm quoting some famous baseball star, just killed too many brain cells in the 60's and 70's and don't remember who, but the quote fits i think,
"throw the bums out!!!"[/I][/B][/U][/I][/B]box: rants:

[Simmi]

[quote=
p.s. i think the two guys carrying that log are charlie and willie, and the boys!!![/quote]

Cheech and chong

[The Pirate]

i know, "dude, dave's not home....." it was just for effect.

[noodles]

Cheech and chong

Willie and Jerry (Garcia)

[reprob8]

Courtney Love and Andy Dick?biggrin:

[The Pirate]

lord please don't let those 2 breed!!!